Tune-o-matic, buzz-tastic!
The retainer wire on a standard Tune-o-matic bridge can buzz and rattle if the bridge isn’t machined to perfection.
I didn’t expect this to bother me as much as it does. The buzz doesn’t come through the amp, but I don’t usually play very loud, so hearing a buzzy rattle from the bridge results in a real lack of clarity in the sound I’m hearing.
Here’s a video where I demonstrate what it sounds like when the retainer wire on your Tune-o-matic gets all buzz-tastic.
Trying to fix it
Dan Erlewine in his book The Guitar Player Repair Guide recommends using a small flathead screwdriver to push down on the wire, kinking it between the screws. I tried that without luck.
I’ve seen some people recommend getting the intonation right and then using clear finger nail enamel to lock the wire in place. I’ve also seen talk of using a dab of glue, or hot wax, or just oil (perhaps Nut Sauce).
All of these seem to have the flaw that the buzz will eventually come back. If there’s an inexpensive replacement bridge that’ll drop right in, it seems like a better solution.
Considering a replacement bridge
The existing bridge has a 12” radius to match the neck, 2 1/16” string spacing, and the posts are set 2 29/32” apart. The posts are M4 (4mm).
A replacement bridge should preferably match the post spacing/size specs, so it’ll fit right over the existing posts. It would also be possible to remove the existing posts, fill will dowels, and re-drill for new posts, but I’d prefer not to.
As for radius, 12” is definitely preferable. A 14” radius bridge over a 12” radius neck may feel a bit weird. As for spacing, a bit narrower than 2 1/16” would be fine.
Lastly, it would be good if the bridge was wider for better intonation range. I find it hard to intonate the G string on this Tune-o-matic- I ended up removing and reversing the G string saddle which gives a bit more range for intonation but is non-ideal.
Possible roller bridges
Wilkiinson Locking Roller Bridge – 2 1/16″ spacing, 12″ radius
Guitar Fetish Gold Roller Bridge
Schaller Roller (2” spread, 14″ radius and M5 posts)
Stewmac locking roller (2” spread, 14″ radius and posts are M8x1.25)
Possible non-roller bridges
Gotoh Tune-o-matic (2 1/16″ string spread, 12″ radius, M4 post)
Graphtech ResoMax bridge with string saver saddles
TonePros TP6-G locking nashville style
The Choice
Ok, I’ve decided to order the Wilkinson roller and give it a try! It’s inexpensive, very adjustable, it locks to the posts, and seems to get mostly positive reviews.
I checked with Jay at GuitarFetish and he thinks it’ll be a drop-in replacement for the Epiphone Riviera.
Stay tuned for more…
Update: see my experiments with the roller bridge.
October 11, 2009 @ 4:10 pm
looks amazing but the quality just isnt there
October 11, 2009 @ 4:42 pm
hold that against it 🙂 even if you put in new pickups, pots/cap, and
bridge, you’ll still be saving money over a gibson…
October 11, 2009 @ 4:59 pm
The fundamentals are strong. Just some of the components are cheaper, but
they’re easily replaceable. Spend $3000+ on a gibson if you want, but I’ll
take this one for $450, fix it up for a few more hundred, and save a ton of
$ for other projects 🙂
October 11, 2009 @ 5:03 pm
everyone mentioned quality problems as well as an underwelming sound. If
I’m going to lay down my money on a guitar it needs to make me want to play
it, I’m all up for mods but I’m not overly techie and I wouldn’t want to
put that much time and effort into a 500 dollar guitar.
November 11, 2009 @ 9:54 pm
but as I mention in the video, I typically don’t play too loud through the
amp, so it still bothers me. If your amp is cranked, you won’t notice it.
November 15, 2009 @ 4:45 pm
off your strings. (The wire is what holds them down). With the strings on,
the pressure of the strings holds everything in place. So as long as you’re
careful when changing strings, I guess it would be ok to remove the wire.
This whole assembly is a bit fiddly, isn’t it?! 🙂
December 8, 2009 @ 9:10 pm
February 5, 2010 @ 5:37 pm
John, did you ever go ahead with the roller bridge? If not, how is the tune-o-matic with the Bigsby? I’m wondering because I’m considering a piezo bridge replacement like this one… http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,_tailpieces/Electric_guitar,_Tune-o-matic_bridges/L_R_Baggs_T-Bridge.html?tab=Details#details
Are you able to use the Bigsby with the tune-o-matic, or is there popping when the strings pass over the saddles? Thanks.
February 5, 2010 @ 8:44 pm
Hey Zack,
Roller bridge is almost next on my list. I have it here, waiting to be installed. I just need to wrap up part 2 of the the big tone cap comparison, and then I’ll finally be doing the video on “how to put all the electronics back into the guitar”! And THEN, I’ll be putting in the roller bridge and doing before/after comparisons. Looking forward to it.
Can’t believe it’s been 5 months since I posted this! Everything takes longer than I expect 🙂
Probably a couple more weeks, so stay tuned!
-John
February 5, 2010 @ 8:51 pm
…with bated breath…
have you noticed any pinging issues with the strings passing over the tune-o-matic?
February 5, 2010 @ 8:53 pm
As for the Bigsby with the TOM, it seems to be ok. It’s not really popping or anything. It’ll be interesting to do the before/after comparison. The main thing that bugs me about this TOM is still this buzzing thing.
-John
February 13, 2010 @ 12:26 pm
the bridge and fix the retainer wire. i saw this on “300guitars” check out
his vid on this. debbie keep strummin’
February 15, 2010 @ 7:58 pm
saddles and screws in place when you’re changing strings. so if you’re not
careful, changing strings can be a big hassle when everything falls out 🙂
March 9, 2010 @ 2:14 am
& wrap teflon thread tape(plumbers tape) around the bridge, just a couple
of passes is enough. The tape is somewhat self amalgamating so there’s not
adhiesive to gunk up the bridge, it is easy to remove and it WILL kill the
buzz. I have the same problem with both of my guitars that have
tune-o-matic bridges and it works for both. You will get people asking
why…just tell ’em it’s tone tape. 🙂
May 6, 2010 @ 6:30 pm
July 1, 2010 @ 1:19 pm
totally kicks major ass). would u have any other suggestions??? thank u so
much!!!
July 5, 2010 @ 11:09 pm
July 7, 2010 @ 3:17 pm
sitting in inventory that long! My guitar was greatly improved after having
a luthier work on it- he dressed, crowned and polished the frets, filed and
smoothed the nut and bridge saddles. Check my blog entry about it from
September 9, 2009. Hope you get yours sorted out!
July 11, 2010 @ 8:33 am
output jack falls into the hollow body. After the output jack fell inside
the guitar for the 3rd time I got so discusted with this guitar I don’t
play it anymore.
July 11, 2010 @ 9:38 am
adding a tooth washer (or replace the flat washer with tooth washer if
there isn’t room for both).
September 10, 2010 @ 4:53 pm
like quitting( I was still a beginnerish player and it was not enjoyable).
I was sure it wasn’t the screws or the pickguard so I knew it had to be the
bridge because it would stop when i messed with it.Then one day i started
messing with the action and truss rod and everything and a few days later I
realized that somehow it was gone but I guess i must have tampered with the
bridge somehow.I Wish i had found this sooner.
November 1, 2010 @ 7:37 am
similar (import) TOM. I just got it (love it), and changed strings for the
first time last night – it has little nuts on the end of the saddle screws,
so I attempted to tighten them snug (wrench in one hand, screwdriver in the
other.) It seems to have helped, but not 100% cured. I have foam under the
trapeze bridge so I’m confident it’s not that. Anyone know if a Gotoh TOM
will fit a Hag?!
November 1, 2010 @ 8:08 am
November 1, 2010 @ 8:12 am
November 15, 2010 @ 6:39 pm
November 16, 2010 @ 1:03 pm
November 19, 2010 @ 4:33 pm
December 1, 2010 @ 10:26 am
December 9, 2010 @ 12:01 pm
February 1, 2011 @ 3:28 am
February 14, 2011 @ 6:40 pm
March 31, 2011 @ 4:50 am
April 11, 2011 @ 9:31 pm
but when i’m just playing quietly, that buzz REALLY sucks.
i’m replacing it with a wilkinson roller. video how-to and comparison coming soon…
April 12, 2011 @ 6:38 am
June 1, 2011 @ 4:38 pm
June 5, 2011 @ 9:29 pm
April 10, 2011 @ 10:59 pm
April 11, 2011 @ 9:32 pm
April 13, 2011 @ 11:22 am
April 15, 2011 @ 7:44 pm
Firstly, love your site!
I just bought an Ibanez AF75TDG hollowbody which has the tune o matic with rollers. I got it on ebay and was a little concerned when it arrived as the saddles seemed to be pushed towards the far end from the screw head. Particularly the G saddle. I couldn’t figure out why they would set it like that with a floating bridge as you could just reposition the entire bridge and set the saddles more in the middle of the adjustment range. I took the bridge off to remove the foam piece that shipped with the guitar (also couldn’t figure out why the previous owner hadn’t removed that) and repositioned the bridge for intonation. I fiddled a little bit with the saddle adjustment to “un-bury” the saddles from the far end. Ah, the bridge buzz showed up that I had experienced with another of my hollowbodies with a similar bridge. It appeared to be at the G string saddle. Thusly a google search brought me here. I examined the retainer clip and it does not appear to be loose. The screw itself seems to have some side to side play though which would indicate that either the hole is slightly large or the screw is slightly small. Something’s out of tolerance for sure. This got me to thinking that perhaps the quality control on these bridges is not superior and the guitar manufacturer makes up for low quality by setting the saddles in the fashion that I found to cut down on waste and cost. If you bury the saddle against the bridge it will make the hole assembly more rigid and cut down on buzz. Just my $0.02 on the subject. I have another bridge that I may try and swap saddle screws with until I find a good match. That is unless the hole is too large in which case the temporary fixes that you mentioned may be my frugal guy fix.
April 15, 2011 @ 8:49 pm
Hey DK,
Yeah, you sure are right about them cost-cutting here at the bridge- one of the most critical components of the instrument.
For your loose screw, you could perhaps wrap it in some tape (teflon?) to snug it up in the hole? Perhaps some small rubber grommets fit around the screws? Or yes, a new bridge. I’m still sitting on my replacement Wilkinson roller bridge, waiting for the right time to tear it all apart. So much to do, so little time 🙂
Good luck!
-John
April 15, 2011 @ 9:27 pm
Hey John,
Well yeah, along with being frugal, time commitments play in for me as well. I imagine that the amount of slop here is so minimal that a rubber grommet would not solve the problem, but I did think that the teflon tape method would be a good solution.
The other (non-frugal) option is to ask if anyone has any recommendations for a hollowbody floating bridge alternative. Guitar Fetish lists one in the $30 dollar range (Gold hardware here) that includes the entire bridge assembly (rosewood and all) Their listing says that these bridges don’t buzz, but at that price, I’m thinking mass production which these days equates to Asian production which in turn implies low quality standards and another buzzy product. Perhaps a virtual call to guitar fetish is in order to see how they respond to my concerns on craftsmanship, quality, warranty, and returns based on buzzy bridges. I will post further with my experiences.
Aside from all of that, an alternative approach could be to check if the Wilkinson model fits onto my my existing rosewood/post assembly and solve this problem. It looks like that design would eliminate the buzz potential with the use of all of those set screws to make things rigid. I’m just curious how the Wilkinson design affects other aspects of the sound. And what is the radius of that bridge?
If only I knew of someone who had one of these bridges and had installed it and could give me some feedback on the sound quality…..
:0)
April 27, 2011 @ 8:49 am
May 7, 2011 @ 3:14 am
I had this buzzing problem with my 2010 Epiphone LP Standard on the 2nd and 3rd string (it would sometimes alternative between the two), after reading this thread I tried the quick fix method of pushing down on the retaining wire. This worked temporarily but the problem came back after a few days. I managed to do something else which has now seen this problem gone for a week and a half now (hopefully forever) so I thought I’d share it.
After some tinkering I noticed that the intonation adjustment screws were slightly loose for the 2nd and 3rd strings, while the same screws for the other strings were pretty solid. (loose as in could easily rotate without effort; not as in falling out or anything)
So I grabbed a screwdriver and rotated the loose screws until they became tight again (both screws took something less than a full rotation, the intonation did not get affected. Basically the bar that held up the string itself did not move, the screw was tightening itself only).
Once this was done, buzzing was instantly gone. It seems that in my particular case, it wasn’t a loose wire rattling against the screws/bridge, it was loose screws rattling against the wire.
May 9, 2011 @ 10:15 pm
Cool! Glad that fixed it for you. My bridge screws are not loose, so for me, I really think it is the wire. Sure seems like there’s a number of things that can go wrong with a tune o matic!
John
May 19, 2011 @ 9:53 am
June 8, 2011 @ 10:58 pm
June 14, 2011 @ 10:47 am
July 7, 2011 @ 11:07 pm
July 25, 2011 @ 5:53 pm
June 12, 2012 @ 1:45 pm
I took two tiny pieces of foam…and with a small stragith screw driver…wedged the foam at bothe ends of the baling wire…and it reduced the buzz by about 75%
August 7, 2011 @ 8:45 pm
I have a Epiphone LesPaul Standard, I’m considering a replacemente because that wire’s buzz in the bridge drives me crazy…
Do you know if wilkinson roller bridge will match (in size and string spacing) with the bridge that comes with LP Standard?
Thanks, greetings from Brazil!!
August 9, 2011 @ 5:11 pm
I suspect that you have the same tune-o-matic as on my Epi Riviera.
I just took some measurements of the Wilkinson roller- so you can compare with your LP:
– stud spacing 74mm (2.9″)
– string spacing 10mm (0.4″)
Hope this helps,
John
August 10, 2011 @ 9:51 am
Thanks man, it helps me so much. I just hate that buzz…
August 10, 2011 @ 5:20 am
I have the roller bridge in both my P93 and a late 90s Epi LP Standard. No issues. Works great on both. Bigsby in the LP too.
August 10, 2011 @ 9:09 am
Thanks for the info Scott!
John
September 7, 2011 @ 9:30 am
Thanks for sharing, I’ve already bought a roller bridge on ebay. just waiting the shipment. As soon as it arrives I’ll post a little review about the result
September 7, 2011 @ 9:32 am
Great! Keep us posted.
John
September 6, 2011 @ 2:39 pm
I put in a Nashville style bridge in my P93 (without the string guides) and it seems to do the trick. The Gibson posts are a smaller diameter so just leave in the originals. The roller bridge seems like the natural option – the 3d Schaller roller is a great bridge. Good tuners (replaced mine with Kluson) are also a nice option. Upgrading the hardware and electronics in these really enhance the instrument. Despite these weaknesses, it’s really a nice guitar.
September 7, 2011 @ 9:20 am
Hey Will,
Thanks for the update. Great to hear that it’s coming together nicely.
As far as I can tell, the Schaller 3d is a flatmount bridge, so that wouldn’t work on the P93, but the Schaller standard roller (or STM) would do fine.
Which Kluson’s did you go with?
-John
November 15, 2011 @ 10:22 am
December 18, 2011 @ 2:18 pm
December 22, 2011 @ 12:44 pm
for while I have the tuneomatic covering it with an elastic
but I want to change it
December 26, 2011 @ 10:25 am
March 20, 2012 @ 11:49 am
March 26, 2012 @ 10:21 am
Sweet ES-355 - Planet Z
February 22, 2012 @ 5:59 pm
[…] completed my planned changes to improve the usability of the middle pickup, nor have I replaced the buzzy bridge with the roller. Changing these three pickups to two humbuckers is certainly possible, but […]
May 11, 2012 @ 11:05 pm
brawerguitarrepair(dot)blogspot(dot)com/2010/09/those-pesky-rattling-tune-o-matic.html
November 26, 2012 @ 11:41 am
Hi, Thanks for noticing! It is an easy and effective trick.
I wish they made the bridges better…
Gary
November 26, 2012 @ 3:33 pm
That’s a great idea, aside from the uncomfortable image of a dentist wiring braces shut 🙂
John
Tune-o-matic vs Roller -
May 15, 2012 @ 9:43 am
[…] in 2009, I described my frustration with the Tune-o-matic bridge on my Epiphone Riviera P93. The retainer wire that holds the […]
May 26, 2012 @ 1:10 pm
However, have you noticed the tuneomatic bridge is not totally aligned to the pickup? Is it the way it should be? I haven’t look at the intonation yet, though I think (by ear) it is pretty ok.
May 28, 2012 @ 8:46 pm
September 28, 2012 @ 6:17 am
A Worthy Tribute -
July 11, 2012 @ 6:00 pm
[…] heard no buzz or rattles from this LockTone Tune-o-matic, but I imagine it won’t be long before that wire starts rattling. I will most likely end up replacing the bridge with the Gotoh 1511 Tune-o-matic, which […]
New Les Paul Setup -
July 20, 2012 @ 6:24 pm
[…] surprisingly, the Tune-o-matic retainer wire does rattle a bit, so I’ll be replacing this bridge with a Gotoh 1511-N from StewMac. While I’m […]
August 10, 2012 @ 12:27 pm
October 25, 2012 @ 12:23 am
October 25, 2012 @ 9:22 am
November 27, 2012 @ 8:07 pm
November 29, 2012 @ 1:07 pm
December 20, 2012 @ 11:58 am
December 23, 2012 @ 6:19 pm
December 29, 2012 @ 4:31 pm
December 30, 2012 @ 12:49 am
December 30, 2012 @ 10:36 pm
January 15, 2013 @ 10:12 am
January 15, 2013 @ 4:52 pm
I think this issue is very common to most if not allTOM bridges with retainer wires. I replaced both of my wired TOM’s here. I put a Wilkinson roller on the P93 and a Gotoh 1511 on the Les Paul. Cheap easy upgrade.
January 16, 2013 @ 10:56 am
May 23, 2013 @ 12:53 pm
May 29, 2013 @ 4:03 pm
October 17, 2013 @ 10:52 pm
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October 18, 2013 @ 9:33 am
January 4, 2014 @ 12:54 pm
string (and sometimes g string)… driving me nuts. Would you recommend a
Gibson Nashville or the Gotoh? I don’t know which model to get, so please
let me know. I paid $1800 for the elitist and am disappointed, everything
else on the guitar is perfect.
January 11, 2014 @ 3:26 pm
ordered a gotoh tune o matic to replace it. It doesn’t have that stupid
wire.
January 17, 2014 @ 9:34 pm
tuning)
January 18, 2014 @ 5:35 pm
could not figure out why. I had blamed my own wood working, fret work etc..
Never once considered the cheap bridge I had put on it. That pesky wire,
and I suspect the screws and sliding V things are very loose feeling too. I
shall definitely buy a better bridge. Thanks again, for all your brilliant
videos. 🙂
February 22, 2014 @ 10:52 am
helps
Gibson Les Paul Studio - Planet Z
July 20, 2014 @ 10:33 pm
[…] bridge is a Gibson Nashville Tune-o-matic bridge- no rattling retainer wire to worry about, and extended throw for easy intonation. Setting up the action and intonation […]
Three Les Pauls - Planet Z
July 21, 2014 @ 1:06 pm
[…] bridge is a cheap Asian tune-o-matic and stop piece. It’s got the traditional buzzing screw-retainer wire, and the adjustment screws and saddles are stiff and a bit fidgety to […]
January 3, 2015 @ 8:16 am
the bridge area I am not a technical person guitars and know nothing about
fixing it any ideas?
Buzztastic Tune-o-matic Bridge Rattle | Guitar Tips Video
April 7, 2015 @ 10:01 pm
[…] https://www.planetz.com/tune-o-matic-buzz-rattle. The standard tune-o-matic bridge has a retainer wire which, on cheap implementations, tends to rattle and buzz. I recorded a demo to show the way this sounds, and discuss how to fix it or replace the bridge. In this other video, I show how to replace the bridge, and do before/after comparisons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDSBQnl8txwLike this video? Please consider making a donation (of any amount) at https://www.planetz.com/donate. […]
September 21, 2020 @ 12:58 am
Thanks for the article. The content is very helpful for me to know about the Tune-O-Matic bridge and set up the bridge. I am using an acoustic guitar and I have to install the Tune-O-Matic bridge (https://faberusa.com/). For this, I need to purchase a new bridge and also need to install it. In COVID-19 pandemic, it is difficult to call a guitar repair specialist and for this, I want to learn the installation of guitar bridge. This article gives me a preliminary idea about this.